众所周知欧洲在罗马帝国崩溃后进入了“黑暗时代”，那么其他文化也有自己的“黑暗时代”时刻吗？
Everyone knows about the “Dark Ages” that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe, did other cultures have their own “Dark Ages” too?
译文简介
众所周知欧洲在罗马帝国崩溃后进入了“黑暗时代”，其他文化也有自己的“黑暗时代”时刻吗？
正文翻译
Everyone knows about the “Dark Ages” that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe, did other cultures have their own “Dark Ages” too?
众所周知欧洲在罗马帝国崩溃后进入了“黑暗时代”，其他文化也有自己的“黑暗时代”时刻吗？
The only ones I could think of would be the Dark Age that followed the Bronze Age Collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean and the period of turmoil that followed the An Lushan Rebellion in China which was said to have ended China’s golden age, I’m no expert in Chinese history so feel free to correct me on that one. Was there ever a Dark Age in Indian History? Japanese? Mesoamerican?
我唯一能想到的就是东地中海青铜时代崩溃后的黑暗时代，以及据说结束了优德棋牌官方下载黄金时代的优德棋牌官方下载安禄山起义后的动荡时期，我不是优德棋牌官方下载历史专家，所以请随时纠正我的错误。印度历史上有过黑暗时代吗？日本人呢？中美洲人呢？
我唯一能想到的就是东地中海青铜时代崩溃后的黑暗时代，以及据说结束了优德棋牌官方下载黄金时代的优德棋牌官方下载安禄山起义后的动荡时期，我不是优德棋牌官方下载历史专家，所以请随时纠正我的错误。印度历史上有过黑暗时代吗？日本人呢？中美洲人呢？
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There's the collapse of classic Maya civilization during the 8th and 9th centuries CE. Palenque, Copán, Tikal and other Maya urban areas went into a terminal decline during this timefrx and were ultimately abandoned.
And even though it's often called a collapse (and some historians dispute that term), it really wasn't the end of Maya civilization...they shifted away from the Southern Lowlands as their center of power and moved on to places like Northern Yucatán and places like Chichén Itzá prospered for awhile after that epoch. Mayan civilization lasted until pretty much the end of the 17th century, when the Spanish conquered Nojpetén, the last independent Maya city-state.
公元8、9世纪期间，经典的玛雅文明出现了崩溃。帕伦克、科潘、提卡尔和其他玛雅城市地区的人口急剧下降，最终被遗弃。
即使这段时间经常被称为玛雅文明的崩溃（一些历史学家对这个词有异议），但它确实不是玛雅文明的终结......他们把权力中心从南部低地转移到了北尤卡坦等地，在那个时代之后，像奇琴伊察这样的地方还是繁荣了一段时间。玛雅文明一直持续到17世纪末，直到西班牙人征服了最后一个独立的玛雅城邦--诺杰佩滕。
Hell, Mayans still exists today- according to Wikipedia, There are around 6 million,. So unlike what many may think the ethnic identity never disappeared unlike many others.
嘿，玛雅人今天仍然存在-根据维基百科，大约还有600万人。因此，与许多人可能认为的不同，玛雅人的种族身份从未像其他许多人那样消失。
I watched a report not long ago about Mayan culture in Guatemala that was VERY interesting. There are definitely still people who identify ethnically as Mayan and who speak Mayan dialects, and try to keep other forms of Mayan culture alive within their communities. A bit more anecdotal but my husband and I did a tour of Tulum and our tour guide identified herself as Mayan in heritage and talked a little bit about it. She was a very intelligent and interesting woman!
不久前我看过一篇关于危地马拉的玛雅文化的报道，非常有趣。当然，仍然有一些人认为玛雅人具有种族特征，他们讲玛雅方言，并试图在他们的社区内保持其他形式的玛雅文化的活力。此外还有更多的轶事，我和我的丈夫参观了图卢姆，我们的导游认为自己是玛雅后裔，并和我们谈到了这一点。她是一个非常聪明有趣的女人！
Yeah, I am from the Yucatán and can confirm that the Maya and their language is very much alive.
是的，我来自尤卡坦，可以确认玛雅人和他们的语言依然非常活跃。
I live in Guatemala, where there's surely the largest population of Mayans in the world. I work with many purely indigenous Mayan communities. They're 3rd class citizens here, after the mixed middle class and the Spanish pure-bred upper-class/owners.
我住在危地马拉，那里肯定有世界上最多的玛雅人。 我与许多纯粹的土著玛雅社区合作过。 他们是这里的第三等级公民，仅次于混合中产阶级和西班牙纯种的上层阶级/所有者。
I've never had the opportunity to hear it in person, damn that's interesting.
我还没有机会亲自听到过，淦这也太有趣了。
Yep, a friend of mine was a missionary in southern Belize, and brought me out there once. Lots of indigenous Mayans still living in the bush there. He just kinda takes US church money and helps people out over there building houses, repairing the school, etc cuz everyone’s dirt poor out there.
是的，我的一个朋友曾在南伯利兹当过传教士，曾带我去过那里。许多土著玛雅人仍然生活在那里的灌木丛中。他只是拿了一些美国教堂的钱，帮助那里的人建造房子，修理学校等，因为那里每个人都很穷。
This is the late bronze age collapse right? Maybe the greatest darkage of all time.
这是青铜时代晚期的崩溃对吧？ 可能是有史以来最伟大的黑暗时期。
It's got everything, the rise of the Greeks, unexplained collapse, and the sea people!
它包含了一切：希腊人的崛起，无法解释的崩溃，还有海上民族！
I don't know how accurate it is still concidered, but often the Trojan war and the Exodus are tangled up into all of this.
我不知道记载准不准确，但特洛伊战争和出埃及记也是在这段时间里。
The Mycenaean empire was the one getting invaded by the sea peoples. And no one really knows who the sea people were. Most scholars believe they were a confederation of people from southern Europe and other Mediterranean islands.
迈锡尼帝国是一个被海上民族入侵的帝国。没有人真正知道海上民族是谁。大多数学者认为他们是来自南欧和其他地中海岛屿的人的联盟。
Agreed, and who knows what caused the famine. Climate change; collapse of agricultural systems; Ajax, Achilles, Diomedes and Odyseus pillaging the region :)
同意，不过谁知道是什么引起了饥荒。气候变化；农业系统崩溃；或者是阿贾克斯、阿喀琉斯、迪奥梅德斯和奥德修对该地区的掠夺:)
I am reading that 1077 bc book and it is intereting. Only thing I don't get is how this collapse brought about the Iton Age. You'd think advanced trade and tech would lead to iron discovery and use, not a collapse and dark age.
我正在读关于公元前1077年的书，它是有趣的。 我唯一不明白的是这场崩溃是如何导致铁器时代的。你会认为是先进的贸易和技术会导致铁的发现和使用，而不是一个崩溃和黑暗的时代。
It's a complicated issue. One of the factors is that the Bronze Age elites relied on the bronze trade to keep their power. Bronze needs two elements, copper and tin, that are rarely found in the same place. In order to make bronze you needed to control long distance trade routes that would go from the Atlantic Europe to the Eastern Mediterranean. So bronze became a prestige item which was used to keep the elites' power by controlling those trade routes.
When the iron arrives, it does so in the hands of people whose prestige was based in their military power rather than their wealth. So when the trade collapses, probably due to some scarcity of copper, the previous Bronze Age elites fall under the military leaders of the Iron Age people.
Now what we don't really know is the full cause of this trade collapse. It seems that copper trade stopped at some moment, and it might be because the cultures in those copper rich areas had suffered some drawback. Climate changes? Draughts? Sea People raids? General political unstability? Probably a combination of those factors. We know that at that moment the Atlantic coast keeps relying on the tin trade, until they gradually see a decline on the demand and that brings their own collapse (although there are some theories that point to climate factors too).
It is really more complex, but the main point is that there is a power vacuum due to the trade collapse bringing down the wealth prestige-based elites that is filled by the Iron Age people.
Source: I wrote a college undergrad paper on this very issue
这是个复杂的问题。其中一个因素是，青铜时代的精英们依靠青铜贸易来维持他们的权力。青铜需要两种元素，铜和锡，这两种元素很少在同一个地方发现。为了制造青铜，你需要控制从大西洋欧洲到东地中海的长距离贸易路线。所以青铜就成了一种声望物品，通过控制这些贸易路线来保持精英们的权力。
当铁器时代来临时，它就会落入那些威望是建立在他们的军事实力而不是财富上的人手中。所以，可能是由于铜的某种稀缺性，当贸易崩溃时，以前的青铜时代精英们就会被迫屈服于铁器时代人们的军事领袖之下。
现在我们并不知道的是这次贸易崩溃的全部原因。似乎铜贸易在某个时刻停止生产了，可能是因为那些铜资源丰富的地区的文化遭受了一些弊端。气候的变化？旱灾？海上民族的突袭？一般的政治不稳定？也可能是这些因素的综合作用。我们知道，当时大西洋沿岸一直依赖锡贸易，直到他们逐渐看到需求上的下降，这才带来了他们自己的崩溃（虽然也有一些理论指出是气候因素）。
这其实比较复杂，但主要的一点是，由于贸易崩溃带来的以财富声望为主的精英阶层出现了权力真空，而这个权力真空被铁器时代的人所填补。
资料来源：我就这个问题写过一篇大学本科论文
"Proto-Greek" is a poor descxtor because it wrongly places classical Greece on a pedestal as the "true" Greece. The Mycenaeans were people who lived in Greece, spoke the Greek language, worshiped Greek gods, etc. They were Greek.
The political organization was different from classical Greece, sure, but that doesn't mean they weren't Greek.
“原始希腊”是一个糟糕的描述，因为它错误地只把古典希腊作为“真正的”希腊。迈锡尼人是生活在希腊、讲希腊语、崇拜希腊神等的人。他们就是希腊人。
当然，这个政治组织不同于古典希腊，但这并不意味着他们不是希腊人。
Completely agree with this, its helpful to distinguish how cultures within cultures can diverge for the sake of organization, its not helpful for say understanding how these individuals saw themselves. For example, we describe the Eastern Romans after the "collapse" as the Byzantine Empire because of their varied culture, customs and demographics compared to what most understand as the Roman Empire, but that culture fully saw themselves as Roman and were all intents and purposes were Romans.
完全同意你说的，这种说法有助于区分文化内部的文化如何因为其组织而分化，但这对于理解当时这些人是如何看待自己的并没有帮助。例如，我们把 "崩溃"后的东罗马人描述为拜占庭帝国，因为他们的文化、习俗和人口结构与大多数人所理解的罗马帝国相比有很大的差异，但他们自己本身的文化完全把自己看成是罗马人，自己的一举一动所思所想都是罗马。
Some of Sparta's earliest slaves may have been Mycenaean, but the bulk of the people that we would consider Helots were Messenian, likely an Achaean people. The Messenians fought the Spartans in the mid-700's and lost. Those Messenians who didn't flee were made into hereditary slaves.
I don't know if there's much of a point in bringing genetics into things. "Greece" was never a country in antiquity, it was a shared language, culture, set of myths and beliefs, etc. The Greeks obviously had a strong connection to the Mycenaeans since their cultural epic was all about the Mycenaeans, but how much they interbred is a lot less important than the cultural exchanges I think. The people that we would call classical Greeks I considered themselves members of the four major tribes. Dorians hated Ionians and you don't hear much about the other two.
斯巴达最早的一些奴隶可能是迈锡尼人，但我们认为海洛特人的大部分是美塞尼亚人，很可能是阿凯亚人。美塞尼亚人在公元前700年代中期与斯巴达人交战，结果失败了。那些没有逃跑的美塞尼亚人被变成了世袭的奴隶。
我不知道把遗传学扯进来是否有什么意义。"希腊"在古代从来就不是一个国家，它是一种共同的语言、文化、一套神话和信仰等等。希腊人显然与迈锡尼人有很强的联系，因为他们的文化史诗都是关于迈锡尼人的，但他们血统之间杂交的程度，我认为比起文化上的交流要少很多。我们称之为古典希腊人的人，我认为他们是四大部落的成员。多利安人讨厌爱奥尼亚人，而你很少听到关于其他两个人的消息。
Mongols are like the 1200's Sea Peoples. Horse Peoples.
蒙古人就像1200年的海上民族。马上民族。
Mongols were more like unified rampaging war machine. Sea peoples are unclear if they were a confederacy of pirate like civilizations or if the world had gone to shit so badly that there so many random bandits and pirates that the term "sea peoples" was coined to reffer to all that rabble.
蒙古人更像是一台统一的狂暴战争机器。海上民族不清楚他们到底是海盗一样的文明联盟，还是世界已经乱了套，以至于随机的强盗和海盗太多，所以创造了 "海上民族"这个词，来指代那些暴民。
The Middle East is going through another dark age after the fall of the Ottoman empire.
在奥斯曼帝国垮台后，中东正经历另一个黑暗时代。
You're right. Fractured and warring. This will be seen as a dark period.
你说得对。断裂和战乱。这将被视为一个黑暗时期。
I don't think that you understand what a "dark age" is. Dark ages are not a period of decline, but a period with a significant lack of written source. They are "dark" for us because we do not have as much information about them, not because the life was hard at the time.
我不认为你明白什么是“黑暗时代。 黑暗时代不是一个衰落的时期，而是一个严重缺乏书面来源的时期。他们对我们来说是“黑暗的”，因为我们没有那么多关于他们的信息，而不是因为当时的生活很艰难。
The first person to coin the term ‘Dark Ages’ was believed to be Francesco Petrarca (known as Petrarch), an Italian scholar of the 14th century. He bestowed this label upon the period in which he lived as he was dismayed at the lack of good literature at that time.
The classical era was rich with apparent cultural advancement. Both Roman and Greek civilisations had provided the world with contributions to art, science, philosophy, architecture and political systems.
第一个创造“黑暗时代”这个词的人被认为是弗朗西斯科·佩特拉卡（被称为彼得拉克），他是14世纪的意大利学者。他把这个标签贴在他生活的时期，因为他对当时缺乏好的文学感到沮丧。
古典时代富有明显的文化进步。罗马文明和希腊文明都为世界提供了对艺术、科学、哲学、建筑和政治制度的贡献。
When you say "Dark Ages," are you referring to the collapse of a civilization or a period when we went from knowing a lot about a civilization to suddenly having very little recorded history?
当你说“黑暗时代”时，你指的是一个文明的崩溃，还是一个我们从了解一个文明到突然几乎没有记录的历史的时期？
Not OP, but the definition I heard in college is that Dark Ages are not dark because we don’t know what happened, but rather that the people then knew little of what came before. Frequently due to a lose of literacy, or the dominant language becoming suppressed due invasion.
The Franks of Europe were aware they had lost the knowledge of the Roman Empire. They lived in its ruins, and craved it. There were frequent attempts, in fits and burst, at recovering it (most notably under Charlemagne).
I could imagine similar occurrences after the collapse of the Greek Empire of the East, for example.
我不是楼主，但我在大学里听到的定义是，黑暗时代不是因为我们不知道发生了什么，而是当时的人们对之前的事情知之甚少。常常是因为识字率的丧失，或者是主导语言因为入侵而变得被压制。
欧洲的法兰克人知道他们已经失去了对罗马帝国的了解。他们生活在罗马帝国的废墟中，并渴望它。也经常有人试图不时地恢复（最明显的是在查理曼统治时期）它。
例如，我可以想象在东方希腊帝国崩溃后，也会出现类似的情况。
There are potentially several in Chinese History.
Depending on how you slice it, there’s the spring and autumn period during the eastern Zhou dynasty, which although philosophically and culturally vibrant, was a period of intense internecine violence.
Then there’s the period of disunity between the Jin dynasty of the 3rd century all the way into the late 6th century (which ended with the ascendancy of the Sui dynasty). Though you wouldn’t be off base in putting the start date nearly a hundred years earlier with the fall of the Han. Either way, this one definitely counts as a dark age, at least when compared to the Western European standard.
There’s also the five dynasties and ten kingdoms period between the tang and song dynasties in the 10th century, which was a full on shitshow, but maybe didn’t last long enough to qualify.
优德棋牌官方下载历史上可能有几个黑暗时期。
取决于你如何分割它，在东周的春秋时期，虽然在哲学和文化上充满活力，但这是一个激烈的内部暴力时期。
还有就是3世纪的晋朝一直到6世纪末的分裂时期（以隋朝的崛起而结束）。虽然你把分裂的起始日期提前一百年，以汉朝的灭亡为起点也不为过。不管怎么说，这个绝对算得上是一个黑暗的时代，至少和西欧的标准相比是这样。
还有10世纪唐宋之间的五代和十国时期，这也是一个混乱不堪的时代，但可能持续的时间不足以合格。
There is a very clear distinction between the periods of strife in China compared to the dark ages of Europe after the Wall of the western Roman empire.
In China, the periods of chaos always ended with a new dynasty reunifying the entire country, largely with the same form of government. The Han, Jin, Sui/Tang, Song, Ming, and Qing dynasties spanned over 2000 years, and sometimes there might be more than one hundred years of chaos in between the major dynasties, yet each time a very similar form of government and society becomes reconstituted. Absolute monarchy headed by an emperor, passed exclusively through male heirs (with only a single exception), using a vast confucian based beaucracy, with heavy use of eunuchs within the imperial household, usually worshiping the same mixture of buddhism/taoism religion, etc. Some of these dynasties were invaders from the steppes who took over China, yet they still ruled China in much the same way the first Han dynasty emperors did back in the 200s BCE. Even the language didn't change.
That's the difference between China and western Europe. Once Rome fell, it never came back. Maybe Charlemagne or Justinian managed to reconquer parts of the old Roman empire for a few decades, but they soon became fragmented again. The "dark ages" of medi Europe heralded a completely new form of government and society, which would never return to Roman cultural norms.
Europe would remain fragmented all the way through to our modern age, while China remained a united country, despite occasional periods of fragmentation. You can even argue that the current "communist" government of china is actually in many ways still largely based on the old imperial Chinese government model, except only that power no longer stays in the same family, but goes from one paramount leader to another, modern versions of the ancient Chinese emperors.
与西罗马帝国陷落后的欧洲黑暗时代相比，优德棋牌官方下载的冲突时期有非常明显的区别。
在优德棋牌官方下载，混乱时期总是以一个新的王朝统一整个国家而结束，而且大部分是以同样的政府形式。汉、晋、隋、唐、宋、明、清王朝跨越了2000多年，有时大朝之间可能会有一百多年的混乱，但每次都有一个非常相似的政府和社会形式被重组。以皇帝为首的绝对君主制、专门通过男性继承人（只有一个例外）继位、使用以儒家为基础的庞大官僚体制、在皇室内部大量使用太监、通常崇拜相同的佛教/道教宗教等。这些王朝中的一些是来自占领优德棋牌官方下载的草原的侵略者，但他们仍然以与公元前200年第一个汉朝皇帝相同的方式统治优德棋牌官方下载。连语言都没有改变。
这就是优德棋牌官方下载和西欧的区别。一旦罗马沦陷，它就再也没有回来。也许查理曼或查士丁尼几十年来设法重新征服了旧罗马帝国的一部分，但它们很快又变得支离破碎。中世纪欧洲的“黑暗时代”预示着一种全新的政府和社会形式，它永远不会回到罗马的文化规范。
欧洲一直四分五裂，直到我们的现代，而优德棋牌官方下载仍然是一个统一的国家，尽管偶尔经历分裂时期。你甚至可以说，优德棋牌官方下载目前仍然算是其王朝模式的一个轮回。
For Mesoamerican, there was the Mayan collapse that happened rapidly. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of sources from the time period, but I believe it was a couple hundreds years before the rise of the Aztec, so that interlude could be deemed a Dark Age.
For India, I believe the Rajput period (600s-1100s?) was considered their Dark Age.
For Japan, possibly the Sengoku period, but the Edo period is actually considered a dark age by some historians.
对中美洲人来说，玛雅人的崩溃发生得很快。不幸的是，从这段时间来看，没有太多的信息源，但我相信这是在阿兹特克崛起的几百年前，所以这个插曲可以被认为是一个黑暗时代。
对于印度，我相信拉杰普特时期(600s-1100s？) 被认为是他们的黑暗时代。
对日本来说，可能是战国时期，但江户时期实际上被一些历史学家认为是一个黑暗时代。
The comment about the Edo period is interesting because it does highlight a big difference in historians' attitudes towards Japanese culture and "progress."
The camps who use Japan's progress towards modern economic and social systems as the measuring stick of success tend to see it as a "dark ages" where the medi caste system and isolationist policy froze the country in amber and severely weakened it both socially and economically against eventual outside pressure. And that Japan's rapid Western modernization after the Meiji Restoration was a universal good. I'd categorize this as sort of the "Fukuzawa Yukichi" camp of thought.
But there's also the fact that the majority of cultural things now considered "stereotypically Japanese," from tea ceremonies to haiku to geisha to religion to samurai to Hokusai, were all formalized and flourished during the Edo period, once the country was no longer at constant civil war.
The tension between modernization and cultural tradition is an unresolved constant while reading through later Japanese history. While mostly about simple politics and status, one could say the Satsuma Rebellion is an example of this tension. Even still, particularly because of this lack of a black/white definition, I think even those who take a critical eye towards the stagnation of Edo would still hesitate to call it a "Dark Age" on the level of OP's other examples.
关于江户时期的评论很有趣，因为它确实突出了历史学家对此时期日本文化和“进步”的态度的巨大差异。
将日本在现代优德棋牌官方下载和社会制度方面的进步作为衡量成功的标准的阵营倾向于将其视为一个“黑暗时代”，中世纪的种姓制度和孤立主义政策使该国成为被冻结的琥珀，并在社会和优德棋牌官方下载上严重削弱，以抵御最终的外部压力。而日本在明治维新后迅速的西化现代化被普遍认为是好的。我会把这种想法归类为“福泽谕吉”思想阵营。
但也有一个事实，现在被认为是“刻板日本人形象”的大多数文化事物，从茶道、俳句、艺妓、宗教、武士到北海道，都是在江户时期正式形成并繁荣起来的，在这个时期这个国家也不再有持续的内战。
在阅读日本后期历史时，现代化与文化传统之间的矛盾是一个无解的常态。虽然大多是关于简单的政治和地位，但可以说萨摩藩的叛乱就是这种紧张局势的一个例子。即便如此，特别是由于这种缺乏黑白定义的情况下，我想即便是对江户的停滞采取批判性眼光的人，也会在与OP（楼主）列举的其他例子的比较下犹豫是否要称其为 "黑暗时代"。